Comments on: Bad Design: Torture in World of Warcraft http://enderra.com/2008/12/15/bad-design-torture-in-world-of-warcraft/ Fiction, World Building, and Art Wed, 16 May 2012 16:15:45 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Charlotte http://enderra.com/2008/12/15/bad-design-torture-in-world-of-warcraft/#comment-1231 Charlotte Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:56:34 +0000 http://www.enderra.com/blog/?p=1782#comment-1231 The relevant point is that, at a time when the use of torture is under current political discussion, our media and entertainment industry have a responsibility to treat the topic of torture ethically and responsibly. If the media portrays torture as an effective and ethical means of interrogation and obtaining information, it becomes part of our culture’s belief system and affects real people’s decisions and eventually real laws. Torture is neither a valid nor ethical means of interrogation and is not an effective means of obtaining accurate information (as expressed by many experienced interrogators <a href="http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/primetime/interrogators.asp)" rel="nofollow">http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/primet...</a>). The point is that WOW, which is played by millions of young people, should not be communicating a pro-torture message. The relevant point is that, at a time when the use of torture is under current political discussion, our media and entertainment industry have a responsibility to treat the topic of torture ethically and responsibly. If the media portrays torture as an effective and ethical means of interrogation and obtaining information, it becomes part of our culture’s belief system and affects real people’s decisions and eventually real laws. Torture is neither a valid nor ethical means of interrogation and is not an effective means of obtaining accurate information (as expressed by many experienced interrogators http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/primet…). The point is that WOW, which is played by millions of young people, should not be communicating a pro-torture message.

]]> By: wow man http://enderra.com/2008/12/15/bad-design-torture-in-world-of-warcraft/#comment-398 wow man Tue, 29 Sep 2009 21:39:44 +0000 http://www.enderra.com/blog/?p=1782#comment-398 Interesting article thanks! Since a meaningful decision, whatever that may look like, is not possible, I feel that the designers should have taken the opportunity to educate the players with the quest. Or just leave it out entirely. Interesting article thanks! Since a meaningful decision, whatever that may look like, is not possible, I feel that the designers should have taken the opportunity to educate the players with the quest. Or just leave it out entirely.

]]> By: Charlotte http://enderra.com/2008/12/15/bad-design-torture-in-world-of-warcraft/#comment-397 Charlotte Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:16:01 +0000 http://www.enderra.com/blog/?p=1782#comment-397 The relevant point is that, at a time when the use of torture is under current political discussion, our media and entertainment industry have a responsibility to treat the topic of torture ethically and responsibly. If the media portrays torture as an effective and ethical means of interrogation and obtaining information, it becomes part of our culture's belief system and affects real people's decisions and eventually real laws. Torture is neither a valid nor ethical means of interrogation and is not an effective means of obtaining accurate information (as expressed by many experienced interrogators http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/primetime/interrogators.asp). The point is that WOW, which is played by millions of young people, should not be communicating a pro-torture message. The relevant point is that, at a time when the use of torture is under current political discussion, our media and entertainment industry have a responsibility to treat the topic of torture ethically and responsibly. If the media portrays torture as an effective and ethical means of interrogation and obtaining information, it becomes part of our culture’s belief system and affects real people’s decisions and eventually real laws. Torture is neither a valid nor ethical means of interrogation and is not an effective means of obtaining accurate information (as expressed by many experienced interrogators http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/primetime/interrogators.asp). The point is that WOW, which is played by millions of young people, should not be communicating a pro-torture message.

]]> By: Nils http://enderra.com/2008/12/15/bad-design-torture-in-world-of-warcraft/#comment-396 Nils Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:56:36 +0000 http://www.enderra.com/blog/?p=1782#comment-396 You either did not read his posts, or you fail at comprehension. I agree with Richard that the Death Knight starter quests are no problem, because they show the evil of the Lich King. They are deliberately set up to show this to the player, giving you a reason to break free from the evil. In fact, I think Blizzard did very well designing that part of the expansion. The quest in question, however, is a normal quest all the "good guys" are made to complete. If you don't see the difference then honestly there's not much I can do for you. You either did not read his posts, or you fail at comprehension.

I agree with Richard that the Death Knight starter quests are no problem, because they show the evil of the Lich King. They are deliberately set up to show this to the player, giving you a reason to break free from the evil. In fact, I think Blizzard did very well designing that part of the expansion.

The quest in question, however, is a normal quest all the "good guys" are made to complete.

If you don't see the difference then honestly there's not much I can do for you.

]]> By: webRat http://enderra.com/2008/12/15/bad-design-torture-in-world-of-warcraft/#comment-395 webRat Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:19:57 +0000 http://www.enderra.com/blog/?p=1782#comment-395 I like how he had a problem with torture, but he had no problems killing in cold blood ( <a href="http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=12848" rel="nofollow">http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=12848</a> ) which is, oh, I dunno, the 4th quest you have to accept and get past. :) I like how he had a problem with torture, but he had no problems killing in cold blood ( http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=12848 ) which is, oh, I dunno, the 4th quest you have to accept and get past. :)

]]> By: Nils http://enderra.com/2008/12/15/bad-design-torture-in-world-of-warcraft/#comment-394 Nils Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:16:22 +0000 http://www.enderra.com/blog/?p=1782#comment-394 There are obviously no real consequences in an MMO, so the situation is only a simulation of the real decisions - and can't ever match them. Thus you'll have to simulate consequences somehow, and World of Warcraft can not do that (it doesn't provide the technological base to implement any kind of serious consequences - the world is static). Since a meaningful decision, whatever that may look like, is not possible, I feel that the designers should have taken the opportunity to educate the players with the quest. Or just leave it out entirely. I do not think that the WoW quest designers actively wanted to tell us that "torture is good", they just carelessly threw something together. Players, by and large, do not feel dirty after torturing the NPC - the discussion on the quest issue has shown this. You may want to check on the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment" rel="nofollow">Milgram experiment</a> to see why. It is quite frightening. There are obviously no real consequences in an MMO, so the situation is only a simulation of the real decisions – and can’t ever match them. Thus you’ll have to simulate consequences somehow, and World of Warcraft can not do that (it doesn’t provide the technological base to implement any kind of serious consequences – the world is static).

Since a meaningful decision, whatever that may look like, is not possible, I feel that the designers should have taken the opportunity to educate the players with the quest. Or just leave it out entirely.

I do not think that the WoW quest designers actively wanted to tell us that “torture is good”, they just carelessly threw something together.

Players, by and large, do not feel dirty after torturing the NPC – the discussion on the quest issue has shown this. You may want to check on the Milgram experiment to see why. It is quite frightening.

]]> By: Alex Moore http://enderra.com/2008/12/15/bad-design-torture-in-world-of-warcraft/#comment-393 Alex Moore Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:31:13 +0000 http://www.enderra.com/blog/?p=1782#comment-393 I do not have a dog in the fight since I neither game nor torture, but it occurs to me that perhaps the underlying message is this: we all have free will. when placed in a situation where torture is a possibility, there will be multiple pressures to engage and real world conseqences (to ourselves) for backing away. after internal agonizing over the decision, after choosing to torture because of external gains, one is simply left with a non-crucial piece of information one could have found else where. Instead of being rewarded, players are left with a dirty feeling they can't quite shake. <em>shrug</em> I dunno. Maybe they're pro-torture people who are trying to convey the glory of the act. but it doesn't really sound like it... it sounds like they have spawned a discussion that wouldn't have happened otherwise. oh. and yes. I'm rather naive :) I do not have a dog in the fight since I neither game nor torture, but it occurs to me that perhaps the underlying message is this: we all have free will. when placed in a situation where torture is a possibility, there will be multiple pressures to engage and real world conseqences (to ourselves) for backing away. after internal agonizing over the decision, after choosing to torture because of external gains, one is simply left with a non-crucial piece of information one could have found else where. Instead of being rewarded, players are left with a dirty feeling they can’t quite shake.

shrug I dunno. Maybe they’re pro-torture people who are trying to convey the glory of the act. but it doesn’t really sound like it… it sounds like they have spawned a discussion that wouldn’t have happened otherwise.

oh. and yes. I’m rather naive :)

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